i've just had one of the most interesting conversations i believe i've ever partaken in. AP government is one of the greatest classes in the entire world, and if anyone who reads this has the chance to take it, DO IT, you won't regret it. it leads to wonderful conversations like the following:
Kim: i'm back to let you know...
Kim: i'm going to fail this debate
Skullbasher62: nah
Skullbasher62: you'll do fine
Skullbasher62: it's easy to argue against privatization
Kim: why don't you like it?
Skullbasher62: because you can't trust people to actually use the cash for what its ment for
Skullbasher62: why do you think the gov't takes taxes outta people's paychecks
Skullbasher62: because they dont trust them enough to pay up at the end of the year
Skullbasher62: and how many people don't file their taxes in the US and dont get caught?
Skullbasher62: lots
Kim: but it's giving the govt too much control. this just slowly puts money back into the people's hands
Kim: we may actually see some of our money again
Skullbasher62: but can you trust the people?
Kim: instead of having the system go bankrupt
Kim: basically you're just asking if you can trust yourself
Skullbasher62: i know i can't trust myself
Kim: i think i'll be better off keeping my own money instead of paying a ton and only seeing a little back
Skullbasher62: but will everyone?
Skullbasher62: like drunkards
Skullbasher62: if they have more money on their paychecks
Kim: do they make any money to put into social security? do they deserve to get any out of it?
Kim: i mean, they will stil lbe getting some out of it.
Skullbasher62: theyre just going to spend it on getting more boozed up instead of creating a nestegg to retire on
Kim: and it's up to them to decide when they most need their money
Kim: yeah, but why give the government the power over somebody like that? it may be a good thing for poor drunkards, but is it worth it just for them?
Skullbasher62: i worked with plenty of guys who would go and get totaly wasted after they got their paychecks last summer because they had nothing else to spend it on
Skullbasher62: and at the end of the year, they wouldn't have any cash to pay taxes with because they spent it all
Skullbasher62: you must think of the general population instead of the few who can be trusted
Kim: well they wouldn't actually see the money, it would go into stocks. it's not like hard cash coming back
Skullbasher62: the stock market can crash
Skullbasher62: great depression ring a bell?
Skullbasher62: the plumit after 9-11
Skullbasher62: the stock market isn't a sure thing
Kim: yes, but doesn't it generally go upwards? it's better than not inflating at all
Kim: and it won't be all their life savings, it's only part of it
Skullbasher62: not necessairly
Skullbasher62: the market fluxuates
Kim: in the last 20 years has it gone up or down overall?
Skullbasher62: plus it all depends on what stock you have
Skullbasher62: like if someone had their savings invested in enron before it tanked, thought they were secure, then the fraud came out and they lost most if not all of it
Skullbasher62: they'd be screwed
Kim: but you put it in different ones, you won't be depending on a single stock to do well. you get ones from different areas and together they almost always go up
Skullbasher62: it may have not been all of their savings, but still, a chunk is a chunk
Skullbasher62: and why are your arguing for it? your supposed to be arguing aginst it
Skullbasher62:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=alternatives+to+privatization&spell=1 Skullbasher62:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privatization#Arguments_for_and_against Kim: you understand that when i'm arguing against you it's just to hear the other side. i'm prepping myself for tomorrow
Skullbasher62: yah
Skullbasher62: but
Skullbasher62: go to the second link
Kim: i don't even necessarily agree with myself but it's getting info out of you :)
Skullbasher62: you just use me kim
Kim: hahah
Skullbasher62: i see how it is
Skullbasher62: im just your information whore
Skullbasher62: anyhow
Kim: yep, i use you then abuse you
Skullbasher62: :(
Kim: haha. anyhow what?
Skullbasher62: :'(
Skullbasher62: and if you still used trillian, you'd hear the baby crying!
Skullbasher62: but anyhow
Skullbasher62: second link
Kim: ok
Skullbasher62: has pros and cons
Skullbasher62: and its wikipedia
Skullbasher62: and they are the stuff
Skullbasher62: so why is intelligent design good kim?
Kim: because it is a plausible reason for the creation of the earth. more plausible and explainable than a big bang theory
Skullbasher62: says you
Skullbasher62: i along with the majority of the scientific community believe that
Kim: hey, even nonchristian scientists don't agree with the big bang theory
Kim: you belive that we came from apes? no, even better, little mudsuckers?
Skullbasher62: the proponent's compliance with the Establishment Clause of the US Constitution has the net effect of giving the teaching of creationism immunity from First Amendment challenges by adopting the putatively theologically neutral stance of intelligent design.
Skullbasher62: anything's possible over millions of years
Kim: you did not write that other statement
Skullbasher62: its also a psyedoscience and doesn't comply with falsifiability or occam's razor
Skullbasher62: no, but i agree with it
Kim: well it's hard to understand. my mind can't take the big words
Skullbasher62: its blatantly obvious that its a ploy to get creationism in public schools under the radar by modifying the wording not to name a specific god, only an "intelilgent designer" as "creator"
Skullbasher62: thus complying to the constitution and establishment clause
Kim: well i think everybody knows what intelligent design is. it's just like calling the killing of human babies abortion or giving back money privitization
Kim: what would you call it? christian-taught beginning of the world?
Skullbasher62: its creationism
Kim: so if they called it creationism they would have less of a chance of getting it taught than intelligent design?
Skullbasher62: yes
Kim: i don't think that the name is everything. i think they have to teach possible reasons for where we came from.
Skullbasher62: because creationism is commonly known to refer to a the Judao-Christian "God" where intelligent design names no one god, only an "intelligent designer"
Kim: and does the majority of americans not believe that they were created by an intelligent creator, God?
Skullbasher62: DO the majority of americans
Kim: shut up :)
Skullbasher62: <3
Skullbasher62: i dont know what the majority of american's believe
Skullbasher62: but i know they all dont believe the same thing
Kim: but they generally believe in intelligent design. and i'm pretty sure a christian intelligent design is still the majority
Skullbasher62: lets assume that most people in the us are of some religious denomination, wether its be christianity, judiasm, buddhism, islam, etc
Kim: yes
Skullbasher62: they would generally believe that they were created by a higher being
Kim: yes
Skullbasher62: but they all dont believe in the same higher being
Skullbasher62: therefor
Skullbasher62: just because the christians have a so called "majority" of followers
Skullbasher62: it shouldn't be made publicly endorsed
Skullbasher62: thats favoring one religion over another, violating the establishment clause
Kim: do you really think we have a ton of islams and buddhists? and yes, isn't america about giving the people what they want? and if there are more Christians than others, and they want their beliefs taught in schools, why should they not get what they want
Kim: but you're right about the establishment clause
Kim: i really don't know how to get around that clause
Skullbasher62: exactly
Skullbasher62: and what your saying as far as "give the people what they want"
Skullbasher62: is what absolutely insane
Skullbasher62: its like majoritarian politics to the max
Kim: i say we should not have to be governed by a select few who don't represent the majority in whether we get taught what we want
Kim: i know, it's very majoritarian
Skullbasher62: what you want and what others want for themselves and their children are different kim
Skullbasher62: if you want your kids to have a christian education
Skullbasher62: you must enroll them in a private christian school and pay out the ass for it
Skullbasher62: public schools are for the general public, who have no common views on anything basically
Kim: so we must teach only the plain facts, right? and is evolutionism the plain facts?
Skullbasher62: evolution is they accepted scientific standard
Kim: who's they?
Skullbasher62: its supposed to be "the" but i typoed
Kim: oh i knew that, i meant who's it accepted by?
Skullbasher62: the majority of the scientific community
Kim: how do you konw it's the majority?
Skullbasher62: do you want me to find proof?
Kim: yes
Kim: lol
Skullbasher62: im kickin your ass after this
Kim: haha. but you're my little information whore. i need you.
Skullbasher62: ill information whore you
Kim: haha. no, you're the one giving me all the sites and copy/pastes
Skullbasher62: just because i feel like fighting
Skullbasher62: and im distracting you from your work on your debate, thereby making you look like a fool tomarrow
Skullbasher62: unless amiee saves your ass, which she probably will
Kim: well i'm getting worn out. yes you are distracting me from my work. hey, watch it. i don't need no saving
Kim: what do you mean by that?
Skullbasher62: teehee
Skullbasher62: i love pushing your buttons
Kim: yeah well you know what?
Kim: well i know what too
Kim: just because she has more time than me :)
Skullbasher62: your great fun you know?
Kim: so you're trying to be nice now? is that it?
Skullbasher62: no
Skullbasher62: im just saying i'm having fun with this
Skullbasher62: im trying to tell you i love you damn it!!!!!!!
Skullbasher62: </dramaqueen>
Kim: haha, he falls, and he's conquered, mhahahaha
Skullbasher62: not hardly
Skullbasher62: i learned my lesson last time i got too caught up in someone
Skullbasher62: i think
Kim: who you calling a drama queen?
Skullbasher62: me
Skullbasher62: the
Skullbasher62: im trying to tell you i love you damn it!!!!!!!
Skullbasher62: = dramaqueen
Skullbasher62:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution Skullbasher62: read it
Skullbasher62: and the side pages too
Skullbasher62: In response to the wide scientific acceptance of the theory of evolution, many religions have formally or informally synthesized the scientific and religious viewpoints.
Skullbasher62: there
Skullbasher62: biach!
Skullbasher62: WIDE SCIENTIFIC ACCEPTANCE
Kim: how do you know this isn't a biased website? after all, you did recommend wikipedia
Kim: :)
Skullbasher62: because anyone can edit wikipedia
Skullbasher62: and there are conservatives who wouldn't stand for it being biased
Kim: you can seriously edit the website? here goes...
Kim: j/k, i don't know how
Skullbasher62: yah
Skullbasher62: you have to be a member
Skullbasher62: and it has to be approved by a board
Skullbasher62: well
Skullbasher62: a pannel
Kim: well then, they just approve liberals
Skullbasher62: whatever
Skullbasher62: u just dont have a defence for my finding
Kim: tehe. i refuse to give up. i don't know enough to say why evolutions wrong, if i was a scientist i could
Kim: a good non-biased scientist
Skullbasher62: yah
Skullbasher62: non biased
Skullbasher62: my ass
Kim: ok, i need to work on my debate closing. no more talking about intelligent design.
Skullbasher62: haha
Kim: yeah well it's because of you if i don't have anything to say tomorrow
Kim: just kidding, you helped
Skullbasher62: you know you love me more than you lothe me deep down
Kim: for now i'm frustrated that you think aimee will outshine me. hmph
Skullbasher62: awwwwwwwwwwwwww
Skullbasher62: poor wittle kim
Skullbasher62: cant take a little teasing
Kim: shut up
Skullbasher62: haha
Skullbasher62: you'll do fine
Skullbasher62: i'm the one who's going to suck it up
Kim: haha, my first instinct was to argue against you right away and say that of course i won't do fine, i'll do horribly. but then i remember that i was arguing the opposite
Skullbasher62: since i just disproved everything i'm supposed to be fighting for
Kim: i just have to argue against you someway or another
Skullbasher62: its how we work
Skullbasher62: you know if i wasn't around you wouldn't have an outlet for your aggression against your mother
Kim: that's true. the vase is still actually intact on the table
Skullbasher62: so im your information whore and y;our punching bag
Kim: but oh so handy
Skullbasher62: lol
Skullbasher62: see, i told ya i was rubbing off on you
Skullbasher62: your more agressive than you were and now need an outlet for it
Skullbasher62: thought i probably instigate most of it anyhow
Kim: you're giving yourself too much credit
Kim: tehe
Skullbasher62: commonnnnnnn
Skullbasher62: i have to give myself some sort of purpose
Skullbasher62: otherwise the slitting of wrists occurs
Kim: whatever. you could find a good purpose if you just went to church :)
Skullbasher62: oh HELL NO
Skullbasher62: you did NOT
Skullbasher62: kim
Skullbasher62: i thought we had the church discussion alredy
Kim: well i didn't know you'd get so offended. you're a mature adult
Skullbasher62: im not offended
Skullbasher62: i just like acting overly offended
Kim: fine, drama queen
Skullbasher62: there are very few ways you could truely offend and hurt me
Kim: okay, kevvy mc kev kev
Skullbasher62: that doesn't work anymore
Skullbasher62: punk
Kim: haha. well i hope never to find your 'offended' side
Skullbasher62: yah
Skullbasher62: hold on
Skullbasher62:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/saidimnotmyself/29009.html Skullbasher62: read
Skullbasher62: that sums up my views of religion somewhat
Skullbasher62: and the (deleted comment) was where "cookiepuss" deleted flames against myself and asugermyer (ahsley, chris' girlfriend)
Skullbasher62: flam = inflamatory post = general putdown
Skullbasher62: i believe she called me a selfloathing douchebag in one of them
Kim: who wrote this? chris?
Skullbasher62: "saidimnotmyself
Skullbasher62: = chris
Skullbasher62: asugarner = ashely, chris' girlfirned
Skullbasher62: Skullbasher62 = me
Skullbasher62: co0kiepuss = christiana cook
Skullbasher62: the deleted post notations were christina's comments
Kim: christina cook? like the freshman?
Skullbasher62: no
Skullbasher62: she graduated lastyear
Kim: oh i know who it is now
Skullbasher62: she's not the nicest person in the world
Skullbasher62: last time i saw her was the last time i saw Devin outta school
Skullbasher62: and also
Skullbasher62: just to piss you off more
Skullbasher62: Evolutionary theory ranks with Einstein's theory of relativity as one of modern science's most robust, generally accepted, thoroughly tested and broadly applicable concepts.
Skullbasher62:
http://www.agiweb.org/gap/legis107/evolutionletter_update0801.html Skullbasher62: source
Skullbasher62: and
Skullbasher62: its not from wikipedia
Skullbasher62: thoughts?
Kim: wow, kevin.
Skullbasher62: ?
Kim: i don't think you've really been through persecution there buddy.
Skullbasher62: what do you call it kim?
Skullbasher62: i've been fucked over countless times by christian's and their religion
Kim: i say that being tortured for believing in christ in china may be a little close to persecution
Skullbasher62: but were not in china
Skullbasher62: and ill agree, thats persecution
Skullbasher62: but there are different levels of persecution
Kim: you've been through some person problems that had to do with their beliefs, but far from being persecuted by a whole religion.
Skullbasher62: ostrization is type of persecution
Kim: you're taking it out on christianity
Kim: you're bitter and refuse to see another side
Skullbasher62: and the other side refuses to se mine
Skullbasher62: i dont care for the other side
Skullbasher62: if others wish to believe in a god, two gods, or two thousand gods, thats fine with me
Skullbasher62: i'd just like to not be harrassed about my choice
Skullbasher62: for example, i dont care if you practice your religion as openly as you want, you could go around and judge people by your religion and keep it to yourself all you bloody want
Kim: i'm not judging you by your religion, i'm just saying that i think you think everybody's judging you by your religion.
Skullbasher62: but as soon as you start telling me i'm being damned to hell for eternity according to you and that im a worthless person because of the choices i've made, ill fight
Skullbasher62: but alot of people do judge by religion. im not specifically singling you out or anything.
Kim: you're not a worthless person, actually i think evolution would teach you that we're worthless people.
Skullbasher62: everyone knows that humans are a worthless plague of destroyers, similar to locusts
Skullbasher62: and if they don't their fools
Kim: we are here for a purpose and it's definitely not to persecute anyone or hurt anyone
Skullbasher62: so you believe
Kim: or to run around being destroyers
Skullbasher62: i dont know why im here
Skullbasher62: i dont know why your here
Skullbasher62: i dont know why anyone is here
Kim: come on kevin, isn't there anything in you that wants to belive that you're here for a purpose?
Skullbasher62: for all i know, your not here, or there
Skullbasher62: your just someone i've figmented in my imagination to argue with
Kim: ok, i think i'm going to bed now, this really could go on forever
Skullbasher62: i'm here to learn. thats why im here
Skullbasher62: to live
Skullbasher62: that is the basic function of life
Skullbasher62: to live
Skullbasher62: and to live you must adapt, to adapt you must learn
Kim: why do you learn then? why do you live? if life was pointless why would people fight to keep babies alive instead of having abortion?
Skullbasher62: because the purpose is to live. that means everything
Skullbasher62: the pupose of a lion is to live, an elephant the same
Kim: my life would be completely different if i wasn't living for a purpose
Kim: just to live isn't enough.
Skullbasher62: if the lion must kill an elephant to live, and the elephant isn't strong enough to defend its life, it dies
Skullbasher62: i have a purpose
Skullbasher62: to live
Kim: we aren't animals
Skullbasher62: how wrong you are
Skullbasher62: we are animals
Skullbasher62: just sophisticated ones
Kim: of course but there's a difference. we have souls and they don't. we have conscionces
Skullbasher62: proove they dont have souls
Skullbasher62: proove we do have souls
Kim: you obviously know by now the most important things can't be proven
Skullbasher62: indeed
Skullbasher62: they can't be disproven either
Skullbasher62: because what is a soul?
Skullbasher62: sure there's the dictionary definition
Skullbasher62: but what really is a soul
Kim: kevin, i don't know. it's obviously not a physical thing but it's the ability to be saved
Skullbasher62: exactly you dont know.
Skullbasher62: you have a book that tells you that your "soul" will be "saved"
Skullbasher62: but what exactly is "saved"
Skullbasher62: and if you dont know what your soul is
Skullbasher62: then how can you tell if its saved?
Kim: if you accept jesus as your savior you can have a peace that you are going to be saved. you have to live it too. tell others. it's not a dictionary definition, you said it yourself. maybe it's slightly different for everybody
Skullbasher62: exactly. its different for everyone. just like religion. you choose to believe, i dont. its a personal choice.
Kim: yes, but can't you see there's a difference between chosing exactly little details about what to believe or whether to believe or not?
Skullbasher62: meaning choosing between different sects of christianity/other religions vs no religion at all?
Kim: yes
Skullbasher62: not especially. to have no religion is a choice with the same weight as having one, or choosing catholicsm over protestantism
Skullbasher62: or christianity over buddhism
Skullbasher62: an throughout this coversation i havn't mentioned the hindus once, so i will now
Kim: i'm really tired kevin, i'll try to catch up where we left off tomorrow.
Skullbasher62: thanks for talkin kim.
Kim: i'm glad you talked
Skullbasher62: this is the kinda stuff i like
Kim: goodnight
Skullbasher62: where im not getting damned
Kim: i'm telling you, you've just had bad experiences, it's not all like that
Skullbasher62: thanks for putting up with me
Skullbasher62: i know its not
Skullbasher62: and maybe in the future i'll try again.
Skullbasher62: maybe ill go to church with you next year
Skullbasher62: i dunno
Kim: you're a sweetheart. but not because you are giving me hope but because you're willing to try new things.
Skullbasher62: i want to learn about stuff
Skullbasher62: i really truely do
Kim: and you're not put down completely because of her or stupid kids in elementary school
Skullbasher62: religion is an extremely interesting topic
Kim: it is. and i wish i knew more
Skullbasher62: i just dont know how to go about learning about it with out biasing it
Kim: ok, good night for real now. i know what you mean
Skullbasher62: i dont think "taking everything with a grain of salt" is going to work with this
Kim: g'night!
Skullbasher62: sweet dreams
Skullbasher62: cya tomarrow
*** "Kim" signed off at Tue May 17 23:55:51 2005.
i must say that is one of the most wonderful conversations that i've had on religion. <3's to Kim for putting up with my shit.
i've been wanting to post a marathon entry for sometime now, but i just can't seem to find the words right now. the
photos are flowing forth freely though. i'm extremely happy with my camera. i dont think i could have invested in something more useful and handy. everything in general is going superbly right now except for the debate mentioned above, which i can argue against all bloody day, but can barely argue for to save my life. atleast its interesting.
lastly ill leave you with a picture of Kim, the wonderful girl that i had the conversation with.

